Effective Communication in Pet Grooming: Insights from Amanda Cookson

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Welcome to the Pet Grooming Business podcast with me, Bill Betts, where we give practical business advice to help you grow your pet grooming business. This podcast is sponsored by Low Pay, the low rate payment app that gives you more. So without further ado, let's get going.

Welcome, everyone. Welcome to our next episode of this podcast. I am joined this morning by Amanda from Northern Value Creators, and today we're going to be talking all about communication, communicating with your customers and how to get it right. So welcome, Amanda, how are you? Thanks for having me. I'm really good and excited to be sharing all of my communication tips with everybody. Yeah. Excellent. What part of the world are you in today? I am in the Peak District and it is kind of sunny. It's not raining.

Nice.

I had a really nice dog walk this morning and didn't get rained on, so that's a bonus, I think. Excellent. What make a model of dog have you got? I have got a crazy vizsla. Ah, nice. Do you use a pet groomer? No. Vizslas have no undercoat, a very short head, and don't need it. But I did have a Labradoodle before. He was like a big woolly black bear and he needed grooming. And I have lots of dog grooming stories I can weave into our communication conversation today.

Because I think Pip was possibly every groomer's worst nightmare. Well, it kind of goes sometimes with the. The Labradoodle breed. And to be fair, I was only talking to a client this morning about some red flags, and one of them was the fact that it was a. It was actually. It was a golden doodle. But, yeah, they need a lot of work, don't they? Yeah, absolutely. And he loved that fresh haircut feel, but absolutely hated being groomed. So we. He was so bad that one of the companies that we went to to have him groomed told us that they were closing down and could no longer work with him.

And it was a lie. They didn't want us to come back, but didn't have the. The confidence to say that he was just too much for them. Wow. I mean, that raw, fantastic story because that ties right in with actually why you're here doing this podcast. Isn't it about communication with customers? Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about your. About your business and how you. How you help people with your business. So I am a professional coach. I started off in as a teacher and then a trainer and then moved into coaching and.

And the main client base that I work with are technical experts. So they can be anything from accountants, technologists to people delivering a service where their expertise is what people are buying into. But what I find with my clients and what I do is you might be the very best at what you do. So you could be the best in class dog groomer in the whole wide world. But if you are no good with people then your business isn't going to go very far. So that's where I kind of come in and where I work with people is then helping them be as confident with that people side of things as they are with their area of technical expertise.

I like that. I've never, I've never. I wonder if there's people listening actually that think of themselves as technical experts. You know, we, we, we call ourselves like qualified dog groomers and, and a, and a pet groomer and stuff like that. But it's a bit like when I ask my audience, do you feel like you're entrepreneur or entrepreneurial? Quite a lot of, quite a lot of them sort of say no, I don't really see that. But they are because they're, they're running a business in the seek of profit.

But technical experts is a new one to add to that, to that list. Well, they're definitely technical experts. And if you gave me a labradoodle to groom I would make such a fist of it, it would be awful and I would be in an absolute panic. I wouldn't know where to start. I'm not even comfortable kind of just trimming the nails and all of the small animals in our house against someone else to do that. There's definitely expertise there. Is it like a definition of technical expert then?

Is it someone that's qualified or gone away and done some training? I suppose anyone that's done more training than someone else becomes a technical expert. Would they say if I've read one book more than you, then I know more about that topic? Well, I think if you, I think if you've read one book, as much as you'd like to call yourself a technical expert, I think that's pushing it a little bit far. But if you've got specialist qualifications and you've got specialist skills, of course you're a technical expert.

And I think that is true for dog groomers, isn't it? Oh yeah, definitely. And like you said, I can go into our salon tomorrow and although my wife's Emma says I could, but I don't feel I don't have the confidence to go and go in there and, and pick up the clippers and mow Off a cockapoo or a Labrador, I. Wouldn'T know where to start. And I've been working with a couple of dog groomers and there are specialist looks for particular breeds, there are specialist techniques for particular breeds.

Then you've got what you do for showing, as as opposed to kind of family dogs. So there's loads and loads of expertise there. So you're definitely a technical expertise. And I think one of the things that creates a barrier or creates a communication distance and problem when it comes to technical experts working with others, working with customers, is not explaining your.

So you know, quite often because you think, oh, little of me, it's nothing what I do. Anyone could do it. You don't realize that people need to understand what you're doing, why you're doing it, what's involved, why it takes so long, why you might need, you know, if you think about dog grooming. So Pip was this enormous. He was like a small bear and really hairy, hated being brushed. I mean, he didn't mind his body, but like his legs, his face. Oh, my God. He was an.

So we then got lots of explanations, lots of understanding about the fact that he needed to be washed, he needed his undercoat brushing out, he needed to have the hair around his face, if it was too matted, cut really short, because there was nothing else that could be done. So we knew pit was difficult, but we were very happy because we had the process explained to us. So we knew it could take half a day. We knew why things were being done and why it was costing, how much it was.

And also we had one groomer, this is after the company said they'd closed and they hadn't. So the other new groomer we went to, she had what she. She referred to as her extra time.

What did she call it? She was like an extra time charge. But essentially, I think it was her shit tax. And so this is. If you have a dog that's really difficult, then you add on like a little bit extra. So we had this, I think lovingly, it was a shit tax because the dog was so difficult that she added on. But again, we understood that. We understood why he was more expensive with her because the process was explained. So I think part and parcel of this connected conversation and working well as an expert is realizing.

But other people don't know your process, don't know why you're doing it. And if you explain it, then that makes people feel more connected and more comfortable with you. Yeah, And I think this is really. So I didn't know that you had this bear of a labradoodle before we started the conversation and how you can, how you can relate so well to being on both sides of the fence, the customer, but also the, the, the coach around communication and stuff. And I really love that, that you can see both sides of the story, because I think there's a, there's a real, there's a real frustration within pet groomers where take your, take your labradoodle and, you know, it comes in every 10, 12 weeks.

And, and the groomer feels like they're saying to the customer, look, we're going to have to shave your dog down. And again, you know, and you're not brushing it and you're not bringing it enough. And then 10 weeks go by night. Jesus. I said, you know, we've got to take this short again. This person's not listening. But I suppose as the pet groomer, sometimes we feel that it's the customer's fault for not, you know, they can't be bothered, they don't care about their dog, they can't be asked.

They, they just want to pay for our services. But actually, is it, can it come back down to us and the way that we're communicating with that customer and like you said, explaining not you have to come every time, every six to eight weeks, but actually saying why you have to come every six to eight weeks, you know, and my wife would say, you know, I've explained to customers to a boo in the face, and I'm sure there's some that actually just ignore it, but maybe we'd need to, we need to change up how we communicate with our customers to, to make sure we're, we're, we're getting the message home.

I mean, you're absolutely right. And what was going through my mind, there were a couple of things about the neuroscience of conversations. So if you are communicating with someone and you are thinking, this person is an idiot, this person doesn't care about their dog, this person is behaving in this way just to annoy me. The way that you come at that conversation will create disconnect. So I was really lucky. She's no longer with us to study with an American specialist in the neuroscience of conversation. And this is going back.

I was looking at my certificate. I've got my certificate over here. I'm still so proud of it. Got it in 2016. So it's a few years ago and it was just when people were beginning to get into brain science and really understand what happens. So every time you Communicate with somebody. You are either elevating oxytocin, which is that feel good connecting neurochemical, or you are elevating cortisol, which is that, I hate you, I don't trust you, I don't like you chemical. So you've got these two things constantly going on.

And if you think about that phrase, we'll have to clip it short. Yeah, now you can say that in a way that is really kind, really thoughtful. You know, I know it's really tricky. This is really common with Abra Doodles. Awfully sorry, but we're going to have to clip this short versus we're going to have to clip this short. Yeah, they're two the same words, really. Different energy. And so how your clients respond to you is. And this is going to be like, no, don't tell me this, Amanda.

But it is all about the energy that you bring into the conversation. This podcast is sponsored by Low Pay. Low pay is half the price of sum up and zettle. So you keep more of the money that you earn. Rates start at 0.79%. So if you can take a breath, get yourself in a calm state, see your worst client, the worst dog that you've got to deal with. See them as a friend. Treat them as somebody who you think really cares about their animal and is doing their best, then you'll go at the conversation with an entirely different energy.

You'll elevate oxytocin, where there's more trust, more discovery. So if you think about it going back to. You were saying, weren't you? Oh, I keep saying to my clients, you need to bring your dog more often. You need to do this, you need to do that.

If you had a conversation that was based in discovery that you were having with a friend who you loved and you trusted and you thought was really capable, and it was, gosh, these labradoodles, they are such hard work, aren't they? Such hard work to look after. You know, how do you. How do you manage with all of the brushing and grooming that's involved in between sessions, Amanda? Oh, I would say it's really difficult because Pip will eat the brush if I go anywhere near his face. He will run away and hide under the furniture.

And I can't get him out because he's so big.

Okay, so have you tried this? Have you tried that? So you're then in a space of discovery rather than thinking, oh, my gosh, not this woman again. That awful overdoodle. It's just gonna bark at me constantly so key is to think about how are you communicating, what energy are you bringing into the conversation? Because if you're coming in irritated, your client will pick that up. And I think sometimes we think, you know, nobody knows how I feel. I think this person is really annoying, but I'm hiding it.

And actually, the way you hide it is by having tense shoulders, tight lips, and talking like this. And it's obvious what you're thinking.

I think. I think there. Actually, I was gonna say there's. There's this. By asking those questions, you're building that empathy, aren't you? Because you're. You're gaining that. They're open questions, and you're gaining that understanding. So that customer's gone from, oh, she. Amanda, just doesn't bother brushing the dog. She must take a spoon to it between grooms, and she can't be bothered. Doesn't. Doesn't really, like, know. Doesn't understand what labradoodles are about. But actually, by asking those questions, those pre. Preconceived ideas that, you know, we perhaps have because we're busy, and you might have been the third labradoodle of the day that's been completely matted, you know, and you've got all those barriers up.

You're burning out, like, mentally, because you're dealing with this all the time, and they're big and strong and they hurt your arms and they pull you across the table, all that kind of stuff. But by asking you questions about, well, tell me how you brush your dog at home, you're now building up that mental picture in your head saying, oh, actually, Amanda's having real problems with this. Amanda, like, Pip's not happy being. Having their muzzle brush. Well, they never do. They don't like having their muscles brushed.

And I know how to hold that dog properly and. And get that done. So you're actually building that internal empathy with the customer and. And the understanding, which then I suppose, like you said, must lower the cortisol, the stress levels and go, oh, actually, exactly. Well, you're in a space of discovery. And actually, there. Nobody's ever told me how to hold the dog so I can brush their muzzle. And nobody's ever said to me, no dog on the planet, Amanda likes their muzzle brushing. This is what to do.

So I've just assumed, because, again, I'm not an expert, that my dog hated having his muzzle brush, that all these other dogs must love it. And that's why, you know, I get their face, because I'm doing something wrong with my dog. And As a customer, did you feel like you were being told off kind of thing? Oh, my gosh, yeah. There was one lady who was possibly the best in terms of how Pip looked at the end of the groom, but I absolutely loathed going to see her.

And in the end, we just moved to another groomer because she fancied herself as a pet psychologist, so she wasn't qualified, but she was interested in the dabbler. And she would constantly be telling me about how my dog didn't know it was a dog and how I should be this and how I should be that with him. But we got Pip before we adopted our children, so he. He was our first baby and. And I didn't want him to be, you know, an outside, well behaved, I'll whistle and you'll do this kind of dog.

I wanted him to be my pet. He would. I mean, he was enormous. He weighed an absolute ton, would sit on my lap, but he wanted me to take him out for a walk so I couldn't see the tv. You know, he was just such a lovely dog and I absolutely adored him. And we've got endless stories. You know, when I watched Marley and Me, I thought, well, Pip was even worse than that. So I just adored him. And she was horrible. It felt to me like it was constant judgment and shame and she was trying to make me feel bad so that I would then take action.

But actually the action I took was I left. Well, I think this is a fantastic point, and I'm sure if that pet groomer listens to this or, you know, I'm pretty sure, knowing pet groomers quite well, that she had no intention whatsoever to make you feel bad or, like, schooled or spoken down to. But I think that's a fantastic point that you raised because many people, many pet groomers think that their business evolves around the haircut, the final product, and what you've just said there was, you know, you received an amazing haircut, the best haircut that Pipp had ever had.

But the turnoff from the business, what turned you away from that business was the communication style and how you were spoken to as a customer. And I. I bang on. Like, people say to me, like, how can I? There's. There's 100,000 dog groomers around me. There's loads of competition. How can I stand out as a pet groomer? And I kind of say to them, well, the haircut is just one small part of your business, but customer service value is like an amazing part of your business that you can Hone in on and help you stand out amongst all the others and you.

And I think, I think how. How the person makes you feel. So the dog groomer that we had the longest was a lady that would rock up to the house in. In a scratchy car with a table. Simon have to help lift the dog onto the table with her because it was just so big. I'd hang around and then feed dog the dog bits of treats as she was doing it. And it was all, you know, very basic, very rough and ready and it would be a bit of a buzz cut.

But she had such a lovely rapport and she treated me like a friend. And it wasn't the best haircut, still cost the same as the other ones, but she treated me really well. So I think when you think about customer service, I think sometimes you've got in your head, you know, like in hotels, chocolates on the pillow and all that sort of stuff. It's not about that, it's about the way that you make your customers feel. And one of the things that I've learned as a coach is that how you talk to people is really important and you need to match other people's energy.

So if you've got a customer who is very quiet and slow and talks like this, then if you're all, you know, then you're not going to feel like me. Because our brain is constantly looking and judging. Is this person like me? Are they my crew or not my crew? You know, are we in or out? And so it's also paying attention not only because I think dog groomers are brilliant at this when it comes to animals and is just applying that same understanding to the human and just getting a sense of how do they communicate?

Yeah, how can I mirror the way that they are in their energy so that I can feel more like them and be more comfortable with them? And how can I be curious and stay in that space of discovery so I really understand what's going on for them around the dog. So I like that word, space of discovery. So you're. It's that it's building that understanding with the customer. And I suppose if we start setting our stall out how we want to be go on the new. If we, if we learn to communicate better with our customers, the new people that we welcome into our business, we're going to start having better experiences with, aren't we?

You can do it straight away because one of the conversations that I encourage people to use is, you know, grooming. Grooming your dog is really important to Me, I want you to have a great experience. What can I do to make this a 10 out of 10 experience for you?

You could start tomorrow and they would say, I don't know, I've never thought about it, everything is brilliant. Or they might say, oh, it would be helpful if I could have Tuesdays. Who knows what they're going to say? And then you can say, oh, well, that's brilliant because I could do that for you. And what would really help me is if, and then if a 10 out of 10 for you is, for example, clients bring their diaries so you can book them on, on the day for the next session, or if clients don't come into the yard before the other client's gone, or if they arrive on time or, you know, whatever it is, you can start to create this shared understanding of what good looks like for the both of you.

Because people will do things not to piss you off, but because they didn't know they weren't supposed to do that. Yeah. And I always, I always, I want to make sure that we keep that position of leadership with our, with our clients because I think that's really important and I feel that people do want to be led. So like you said, like, people turn up early and this is a big bugbear for, for the industry where they've got one dog on the table and then the next customer walks up 15 minutes early, or the, the dog owner, the owner of the dog on the table rocks up 15 minutes early.

It's like, I haven't told you that your dog's ready. Why are you marching through the door and winding your dog up sort of thing. So. And again, you know, I often feel that the blame is pushed out and the blame is pushed out to the customer and the fact that they've turned up early and I told them not to come here and I told them not to do this, I said I'd text them, you know, when they're ready and stuff like that. I saw one yesterday. It's like the customer was happy to leave their dog in their kennels for a week, but they weren't happy to leave it at the groomers for an hour and a half.

They had to come back and check, you know, so. But if we had start adjusting and learning and understanding this, then we can use better communication to, to sort that. Well, I think it's. So it's setting our expectations, isn't it? So if you think about when you go to hospital, you are told what time to arrive, what to wear, whether you Eat or not beforehand, what to expect. And you're stepped, although this is going back to your stepped all the way through the process so you understand what's happening.

And by doing that it helps people feel safe and they know what they need to do and what's going to happen next and what to expect. And as a dog groomer, you need to help your human as much as a dog feels safe within the process. So just make it really care about. Bring your dog at this time, you'll collect them at this time. You can't come beforehand because they won't be ready, or if you've got a dog where they might take longer. I'm going to text you when they're ready and you can come after that.

So you explain all of these things. People are forgetful, so you might have told them the first time, they forget the third time. So have it written down. Here we go. This is the way I work, so it's really, really clear. And the other thing is that if you say, for example, I'll have your dog for an hour and a half, so your dog will be ready at N o' clock. And for whatever reason the person came and can I come early? And you say yes or no?

No, no, can I come in? And you say yes. Then basically that rule that you've given is no longer valid because people don't follow your written rules, they follow what you do. So if you are somebody that doesn't have very clear boundaries and you can have kind boundaries. Yeah. To manage the groom, to make sure the dog is relaxed, to make sure that I get everything done and everything runs really smoothly. This is how we work. These are kind boundaries. If you renege on your own boundaries, then the client's not going to know that and they're just going to turn up early.

So for my husband and I, he thinks on time is 15 minutes early, I think on time is two minutes late, you know, and I will deliberately look and wait until it's gone past the time because I think no one's ever ready on the dot. And that little extra bit is really helpful. Whereas he will always rock up early. Yeah. Which drives me nutty because I can just imagine the chaos that I would have if somebody turned up early to my house. So you just need to have these really clear boundaries and say, you know, if you, I don't know, whatever you're doing or whatever with traffic, if you end up early, you'll just need to sit in the car.

Yeah, I think I like that. And you know, Again, it's, It's explaining it, isn't it? And I was thinking, Whilst you were explaining that, I was thinking about the boundaries around.

You know, many, again, pet groomers get. Are busy during the day and they don't get to. To do the inquiries and sometimes they reply to messages and phone calls at like, 8 o' clock at night. And then again, you know, if we're replying to phone calls and messages at 8 o' clock at night, we're giving the, the customers that permission to message you at 8, 9, 10 o' clock at night as well. I think it's worse than that. You've told that customer, you've taught them the best time to communicate with me is 8 o' clock at night.

Yeah. Because that's when they do it. I've got. There's a new nail groomers in it now, bar in the Village and I really want to go and. And I don't know how to book with this lady, so she's trained me to message her on messenger, which is really ineffective. So I'm like, really keen to go. Have not been. I'll probably go somewhere else because she's not made it really clear. How do you book an appointment? There's nothing, there's no piece of information anywhere I can see that explains how to make an appointment.

The only thing I can see is message me on messenger because she's got a Facebook page. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, I think a lot of business owners do this and the fact that they put this stuff out there thinking, well, you know, I'm on Facebook, everyone knows how to get hold of me, but what they don't do is flip the table. And I try and encourage people to do this and pretend to be the customer and say, right, I'm going to be the customer, I'm going to go and try and find the business.

And then once I found the business, I'm going to go and try and communicate the business and then see how far or how frustrated I get before I give up and then move on to the next one. It's quite a nice exercise, isn't it? Yeah. And I think as well, when you're pretending to be the customer, quite often we pretend to be yourself being the customer. And everything you've designed works brilliantly for your own brain. Yeah. But human beings have got the most amazing brains that work in the most unusual ways.

So it's also, I think, being really transparent, being really clear and kindly communicating about what you want is helpful because for some people's brains, they just won't understand what you do and why you do it. And they need that, that kind of understanding and that outline. Yeah. And I suppose we can do that with social media, blog posts and our websites. Like how to Book an Appointment With Us. Yeah, Very simple title, isn't it? How to Book an Appointment and some. And some clients and as well.

So if we think about this neuroscience of conversation and this cortisol and this stress, because Pitt was naughty and difficult and barky and hard work and matted and involved lots of work. And I had a groom, a grooming company tell me they'd closed rather than tell me the truth, that they didn't want to see him. I would be very stressed when I took Pip to the groomers, so I would be flustered, a bit clipped. I probably wasn't listening very well because I'm so kind of like stressed and anxious and is the dog going to behave and is this groomer going to hate them?

And he came out from one groom where he had this.

These bits of fur, these enormous plumes of fur everywhere, and the woman was just absolutely scarlet and sweating where she'd obviously had the worst time ever. So I was really, really anxious. So actually having things that are written down, managing other people's emotions, it's all right, I'm gonna look after your dog. You don't need to worry. All you need to do is arrive at X o' clock and have your diary with you to book the next session. You know, nice, calm voice calming me down. Perfect. Good.

I'm in safe hands because I think it's easy when we're experts to be focused in on the expert thing. And I would imagine that a lot of the people listening, if you could just have the dogs without the customers, wouldn't that be amazing? Oh, I think that's the ideal career for many people that have gone into dog grooming. You know, many of them have worked with the public and hence why they want to work with animals, you know, but unfortunately, running a business, the animals don't get their wallets out and pay you and the animals don't pick up the phone and phone you to put themselves in.

Every animal comes with an owner and they're. They're the ones that we've got to really master, I suppose, have the technical expertise around, is actually working with the owners as. Just as much as working with the animals and do a bit of. Do a bit of training, person training. So this is the time we arrive, this is the time you'll get your dog. You know, the door is shut. We won't open the door until it's the time. So it's really, really clear. And just the thing, if people are mindful every time they do something that breaks their own rules, they are telling their customer that that is actually the rule.

You know, my customer keeps coming earlier and earlier and earlier for their dog. Will you keep letting them in? Yeah, he keeps saying, you keep an eye on them and okay, well maybe we can have a little bit of a journey. So, you know, perhaps we can look at how you do this with a brand new customer, how we can change our practices today. Like how do we deal with a brand new customer that comes into our business? How can we build that rapport with them?

So I would start one with orientating them about your business. So helping them understand your process, how you work, what you do, what's expected. It'd be amazing to have something written down because then the person can take it away. So they've got would be staying in that space of discovery. So really asking those open questions about what are you looking for? What do you want? And also using empathetic listening. So if somebody says, I want the dog cut short, you say, okay, so I've heard you say I want the dog cut short.

What does that mean for you? Is short like this, like this or like this? So they can like just be really, really create that shared understanding. Yeah. You can also say things like, so I do it as a coach. I will say sort of in the mid twin point, you know, is there if there's anything I've done that you don't understand or that's difficult or that I could do better, just let me know. So you're inviting that feedback. And I think people are often afraid to have feedback because they're worried that people are going to say, oh my God, they're going to say I'm awful or I'm rubbish.

But actually it's an opportunity to build that shared understanding and that shared clarity and that sort of safe container where your human can feel safe working with you with their dog. Because a lot of people will be really worried that the groomer will be judging them and will be thinking that they're a rubbish pet owner and not doing it right. And so being in that safe space where you can ask questions, discover things together. And I think if people can imagine, then me with Pip, I do that dog.

I'm so sad he's not with us anymore. There were loads of things that I didn't do because I didn't know how. I think as well, when we went for puppy training, we went to a lady who specialized in gun dogs and she was very strict and we decided that we were gonna rebel and not do that. So we probably didn't get the best start with Pip. Plus he was our surrogate baby, so he really was more of a hairy human than a dog.

So there was things I just didn't know. So, yes, imagine lovely, slightly confused Amanda doesn't know. And so if you don't kindly share, I'll never know what to do. You're a proper red flag customer. You were. Yeah, no, properly, I was, I was the worst nightmare. And you know, we had PIP for 15 years and we must have been through eight groomers and did any of those. So, so opening, opening up the questions. Having some kind of brochure that a takeaway is your, like how you work when pickup is.

And, and this is what I love about the grooming industry in a way is that every business is different. So some people will text their customers, some people give them a, an eta, some people will phone them. You know, there's no, there's no right and wrong. And I always say this to my clients, there's no right and wrong in business. But just decide how you want to do something and like you said, stick to it. Don't. Yeah, stick to it. Absolutely deviate from the rules because you confuse your customers, I suppose.

So, opening questions. We actually offer a puppy package which I feel might have really helped you with Pip in the fact that, you know, the first session is just sitting down with the, with the pet owner and discussing the breed and what's required from the owner when it comes to the grooming with that particular breed. You know, if it's a Labrador, well, you know, a Vizsla, it does, it can come in for a bath, it can come in for a D shed and the teeth clean and stuff like that.

This is what we can offer for your breed. But again, if it's a cockapoo labradoodle, well got, we've got some equipment to give you, you know. Yeah, we bought all the gear. You know, it's always, you know, in a sense a really great customer because we had, we had big pockets, would always buy all the gear, the special shampoo and all the rest of it. We just had a dog that was very non compliant and no, no idea how to kind of hold, restrain and do things.

It's awful.

So I think this leads into another, another part of the conversation communication style is, you know, I think a lot of pet groomers are people pleasers. We're in the service industry. I'd recognize myself as a people pleaser as well. And saying no to people, telling the truth, you know, can be very difficult. So when a man is standing there with Pip and saying, you know, I just like your nice haircut, don't want him too short, you know, and the groomer sort of looks and go, yeah, you've brushed the top centimeter of the coat but underneath it's a carpet.

Some groomers will shy away from talking about that and they'll just agree and say yes. But this is really counterintuitive, isn't it? Yeah, it is. You need to be really honest. And actually I loved working with groomers who were super honest and was saying, you know, this is really mattered or you've done this bit really well, but you've missed this bit here.

And we often liked to have him cut really, really short, like super, super short because he would just be so bouncy and so free and he loved swimming. So he'd get really gunky and really stinky. So he just loved to be cut short. And so sometimes I'd be saying, well, I'd like it really, really short. And I'd have a groom say, oh no, Labradoodles should look like this. And it's like, oh, I don't want to be blow drying a big fluff ball. And he's not that kind of dog.

You know, he likes to roll in poop, swim in rivers, you know, find a dead thing and wiggle all over it. He doesn't want to have, you know, a boofy haircut. No, thank you. I want a towel. Dry him. When he comes out the river, he's going to get wet, it's going to get dry. Going to towel dried, he's going to get matted, let's face it. Exactly. So we liked him really, really short and he loved being really, really short. And there needs to be that honesty there, you know, where sometimes groomers would try and do things to please us because they thought that was right.

But actually we kind of knew he was. By the time we got to seven, we knew he was a pretty tricky dog and we didn't need all of that. And I think it helped educate us about what he needed. And it's a two way relationship, isn't it? And then whenever there's dishonesty or something not being said again, we pick up on that. We can sense it. And as Human beings, we think everything is about us. So if something's not been said, we will feel this groomer doesn't like me or they're judging me or they think there's something bad about me, whereas they might be like, oh my God, you know, how am I going to do blah, blah, blah, blah blah when it's so difficult.

I said, yes, I've said I'm going to do it in this amount of time, but I'm going to need a lot longer. And the amount, the standard charge I told Amanda isn't going to cover the amount of time and all of this is going on inside and all I'm seeing is a face, you know, and thinking, God, they hate me, they hate the dog. Yeah, just be honest, just say what's needed. I think from the groomer's point of view they're quite fearful that if they tell the truth and say the dog is very difficult or the dog was very matted or I could.

Or if they say, you know, some of them may not have the skill to actually be able to accomplish or, or finish what was actually needed. But I think there's that fear there of, I suppose it's that imposter syndrome a little bit, isn't it? Being called out, being found out that you haven't got the particular skill maybe, or don't quite know where to start with this or don't really understand or know how to actually have that conversation with someone. How would you deliver not bad. What is bad news but how would you deliver bad news to a customer with that fear in your heart that it's going to end up with a one star Google review or being told that you don't know what you're doing by the customer or you know, being ridiculed by the customer because you can't finish the dog and stuff like that.

Gosh, that. So I think for me it's about staying in that space of discovery. It's about talking to someone as a friend and it's about co creating what good looks like. So what is it you want to achieve with your dog?

Is that possible for that breed? It's not, I think it, it sounds like there's a lot within that description there that catastrophizing. They're going to think I don't know what I'm doing, I'm going to get a one star review. It's all going to be awful. If you're pretty pretending everything's fine when it isn't, if you're over promising then that's much more likely than being honest and saying, well, what you want to achieve with your dog isn't, isn't going to happen.

Just with the way that, the quality of their coat at the moment and all the rest of it, that might be something we need to work up towards. I think it's also really helpful to be really clear. So if you've got somebody who wants, I don't know, let's, I'm trying to think of like the most difficult, hey, a poodle, let's say. And they want some kind of crazy poodle, dyed pink bows in it, bedazzled bits in the middle. And that's not what you do. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong in saying, do you know what?

That's not what I do. Yeah, that's not my specialism. I can do this for you. If you want all of that, then, you know, you need to look for a specialist groomer. I belong to a group, ask and see if I can find someone and refer them to you. And you might need to travel. So actually not knowing how to do something because it's not in your specialism I don't think is a bad thing. And actually being clear about who you are and what you're great at is a really great thing because then you're going to get more and more customers coming who love what you do and what you do is brilliant for them.

Yeah. And our business, you know, we do great pet trims, but, you know, that is what we do. We don't do like the flared trousers, the Asian fusion kind of stuff. That's just not what we do. We don't do hand stripping. My wife's never been interested in it so we send them elsewhere. We don't do particular breeds and like you said, we just say, sorry, we don't accommodate those dogs in our, in our salon. Because I suppose it's that saying no again, isn't it? It's that ability to be able to say no and be confident in saying no because we're people pleasers and we're, we're fearful about what people say and people do leave one star reviews for not offering appointments to them and, and stuff like that.

But that is only one person's opinion. However, the trouble, I suppose we, we build a lot of trouble up for ourselves by stepping outside of our boundaries and. Yeah, and, and I think as well you need to be true to yourself and you need to be, be kind. If somebody comes to you and they say, you know, can you dye my dog's hair red and give them like Mohawk and I want this and that and you're thinking, sweet Jesus, no, never. I have no idea how to do that.

That's not my thing. I disagree with it. You know, if you're like, no, no back then that is going to make the person feel judged. Whereas you can say, wow, that sounds like the most amazing haircut. And it is something that is only done by specialist groomers. My specialism is X, Y and Z because remember, you're an expert and that's what I offer here. If you want your dog to have a bright red Mohawk, then that is going to require a specialist groom. I'm very happy to take your number and to ask around and see if I can find someone for you.

But it isn't someone I. Something I offer and you do it with absolutely no judgment and think about it if it's helpful that. Imagine if you were a doctor and you are a kidney specialist. Yeah. Anything to do with kidneys. You are brilliant. You are very helpful. You know everything. You've got all the medication and all the rest of it and someone comes in with a gamey toe.

Can you sort my gammy toe? You're not going to go, yeah, I'll give it a go. I mean, kidneys is really my thing, but go on then, let's have a look at it. I'll see what I can do. You would say no? No. Oh, gosh, that toe does look like it needs some work. Thank you for bringing it to me, but unfortunately I don't do toes, I do kidneys. Let me see if I can refer you. And there's no judgment, there's no shame. The guy with a gamey toe isn't going to give the kidney guy a one star review.

He's going to be really thankful that he's been honest and said, look, this is my specialism, this is what I do. I love what you want to do with your toe because it definitely needs fixing, but you're going to do it over there with somebody else. That's it. And I always call that with, like, I always say that's saying no, but with value. Exactly. So you, you're saying no to them, you're getting your, you're getting your way and you're saying no and rejecting them, but actually you're giving them value at the end of it because you're now recommending or putting them in, putting them in the correct direction of where they need to go through.

Yeah. And it's also, I think about, I'm touching my heart as I'm saying this. It's, it's coming at people from this sense of love and kindness and like they're a friend. So if you imagine again, the gameteau. Why are you bringing that toe here?

Yeah. Can you not see it says kidneys above the door. Why have you brought this? That's disgusting. I don't do that. You know, this is like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I just had this bad toe. And so it's also about the energy in which you communicate. And I think it's really important for people to think about how do I feel about me. Yeah. And to remind yourself, I'm an expert. I'm great at what I do. Yeah. I have value, I matter. My boundaries are important.

And I deliver great service to my customers with love and kindness. So when people come and they're asking for something you don't do, you just send them away with that love and kindness. It's not about you, it's not a weakness in you, it's just that that's not what you do. Yeah. And I love this. And I always find obviously working with brand new pet groomers, when I, when I get to work with them, this is so much easier. And, and I think, you know, I've only been around for five years, so, you know, I'd love to look back at some of the businesses I've worked with in 5 years, 10 years time to see how they feel about their business.

Because you get quite a lot of pet groomers that are 5, 10, 15 years in and they are sort of like burnt out by our, by our customers and expectations and business in general. But if we can get this right from the very beginning, our values, our, our, our boundaries, our communication style, leadership within the business, then we're going to have a much happier, happier business owner, aren't we? And a happier business owner creates happy customers. I used to work in customer service Customer experience. And one of the books that really shook up my thinking and transformed the way that I worked was, I think it was Causal Night.

Happy employees, Happy customer. And it was all about yourself and your employees first. And that if you look after you so that you're coming to work in this great frame of mind, your customers will then be happy. So if you are feeling burnt out and resentful, you will be coming at every conversation with that elevated cortisol, that spikiness, that mistrust, that frustration that your customers will feel and they won't think, oh my gosh, this poor person, they must be finding work really difficult. They will just think it's all about them and take it personally.

They don't like me, they don't like my dog. I've done something wrong. And some people will kind of cower back and other people will give you that same spiky energy back. So you end up with. All of my customers are horrible. And it's just because they're reacting to that energy. And we get this quite a lot in the groups. And I get it from clients that say they have had one this morning where we've been helping our clients, who has a particular person, a diary that I sort of said, did I give you joy when you see them or do they give you me when you see them in the diary?

And they're like, it's definitely, I really don't want to work with them anymore. What do I do about it? And it's like, it's time to release them, isn't it? It's time to release them from your business. And I suppose in a way, we are scared of letting them go from our business, but sometimes the customers might be not scared. I don't know if scares the word, but they might not know how to release themselves from their business. And so you've got this, like, you're. You're butting heads together where, you know, the groomer doesn't like what they're doing and the.

The owner doesn't quite like the groomer and what they're doing, but no one's brave enough or. Or showing the leadership to say, actually our relationship's done and it's time to move on. And that's where that sense of discovery and those questions like, what would. What would make this groomer 10 out of 10 for you? Because then you could say, I never feel quite like, I don't know the groom is right, or it's quite what I want.

And then you can explain maybe what it is that you're struggling with, and the customer can then talk about what it is that they want, and then you can have that conversation where it's like, oh, well, now that makes sense to me, because, you know, that's not really what I do. You know, Mrs. Tibbings down the road does that better. There you go. That might be a better thing for you. Or it could be, you know, where I'm the nightmare customer. And I didn't know there was a.

You know, I thought the reason why Pip didn't like his muzzle brushed was because that was just him was actually If I held the dog like this and brushed him like that, it would solve the problem. So I think if you can go into that, you know, somebody, somebody's dog, somebody's custom gives you that, not them again, sort of feeling, actually be curious, what is it? What can we understand together? How can we co. Create a really great experience and to be open to the fact that that great experience might be making a few shifts for you, or it could be about signposting them elsewhere and then that creates a.

Although again, it sounds counterintuitive, I suppose, you know, losing customers, asking them to leave. You know, I'm losing money here, I'm getting rid of customers. And I've certainly. We've been through a few months where I've sort of said to Emma, like, can you how many more customers you're going to bin this month? You know, we've been turning them away where again, we've learned this over the 22 years that we've been in business. We've learned that, you know, if we don't have these clear boundaries, we have unhappy business, unhappy owner and unhappy customers.

So we have shed customers over the last few years. We've asked them, actually asked them to leave and it's empowering in a way, you know, and it builds a better business. So I'm a great believer that your business has to work for you and you've got to enjoy what you're doing. So why are we working with these people that don't fit with our values and, and our beliefs and, and give us the yay in our diaries. I mean, we had one groomer who said with Pip, that he was too big for her to manage because he was an incredibly big dog.

He was a bit unruly and he was so restless on the table and so uncomfortable that he was just too difficult for her to manage on her own with the equipment she had. And we were like, fair enough.

But what they did was they didn't make me feel bad, so I didn't feel shame about that. It was just data, just information. And also they signposted some other options. So we weren't then left thinking, oh my gosh, what do we do? Because the only person we know is you. Where do we go? Yeah. And like one groomer had told you, we've been through a lot of groomers, had some problems with her wrist and so she then wasn't able to cope with some of the work because it was very physical, you know, and that's like a really nice, clear understanding about what it is that makes our dog no longer ideal for them.

And we talk about the energy. So I suppose it's probably a good idea to actually, if you're going to have these difficult conversations, maybe wait until you're in the right one. You might not ever be in the right place to have them because they're fearful and they create a lot of stress, don't they? But at least wait until maybe do them in the morning rather than like having the conversation at the end of the day where you're late to picking up the kids and you know you're knackered from your day's grooming.

Well, I think so. In terms of energy, I think there are a couple of things. One, don't book people back to back. Give yourself break time so you can recalibrate and sort of shake off the energy from one person into the next. Do things that are going to make you feel nice, good about yourself, and you're right. Then I think the energy that you need to be in is to talk to someone as though they are a friend. So if this person annoys you or you've created a whole story about them and how annoying they are to then imagine them instead as being this lovely human being who's doing the very best they can and then come out the conversation from there.

Because it's that intent and it's that connectedness that will make the difference in the conversation. Awesome. And one thing I wanted to sort of touch on as well, you have a saying we you co create agreement and understanding. How do we go about. How do we go about that? So that's asking open questions like, what would make this a 10 out of 10 for you?

It's talking about how important it is that your customers are happy, the dogs are happy. So what do you need? What does that look like? So you're then asking people, and it's also using those tools like empathetic listening, where you are then playing back people's exact language so that they can hear that you've heard them and you then dig underneath. And what do you mean by that? And so when I trained with Judith Gaiju did this conversational intelligence, she sort of talks about a word. So let's say, oh, cut, you know, a short trim that has a word and underneath it has lots of layers of meaning.

Looking or grooming your dog in between sessions. That's got loads of assumptions to it. So let's dive underneath and let's talk about exactly what that means. Because we work so much on expectations and on assumptions. And we think people understand what we're saying, but they don't, they don't know nobody else lives inside your head and the words you use have so much clarity to you, but they don't necessarily have that shared understanding with others. Is, I suppose some people might be asking at the moment because a lot of, a lot of pet groomers, again, don't like to talk to people.

They prefer using text messages and emails and stuff like that. They'll be, they might be saying, well, can I do this, but can I do this via text message? Or is this quite in an important part of the communication to do it face to face, voice to voice sort of thing. Don't know if that's the right way to say it face to face. I think you do need to have a more face to face conversation to establish how things work.

And so if you have a conversation at the start, they've got some information that they have there and then you could carry on with text. But if there's a problem or an issue, I think having that opportunity to chat to people is really important. And actually why wouldn't you want, when you're handing your dog owner over to the owner, not to have a little, you know, a little moment of connection? Because I think so there's a guy called John Gottman that looked at communication, how to communicate effectively and he talked about bids for connection.

And so quite often people will make a bid to communicate with you, which might be there or looking at you or, I don't know, talking about the weather or saying something random about golf or boats or football or dinner or who knows what customers are saying. But actually what they're doing is they're making a bid to you to connect and to build that relationship with you. So if you're like, I'm not going to speak to the human, I'm just going to send you a text later, you're pushing away those bids for connection and you're not building that.

Again, how you make people feel. Because people want to feel good, supported, safe, trusted, like they can ask you questions and if you're never there, how can they do that? And many, you know, I asked this question a lot with my clients, like who's actually speaking to the people on the phone? And many of them, many of them report, you know, better customers, higher prices, you know, better experience with their customers. So we, we understand that. It's just some of the pushback that I get within the community is like, well, and actually one of the, one of the things I, I get quite a lot is actually people saying, well they started the conversation with text message so that's how they want to be communicated with.

But I just thought about what you were saying earlier about the now. The now lady.

Do, do, do we know like they've, they've, yes, they've started this conversation with a message, but is there any other way that they could start that conversation with you due to your marketing and, and the, the messages that you put out? Not, you know, quite often we have contact forms, you know, DMS on, on messenger. But does that actually mean that that's how they want to be communicated with? And you could have. The best way to communicate with me is by X. If you want to book, do Y.

If you want to talk about your dog's needs, do Zed, just tell the customer what you want. Because we don't know. Yeah, yeah. It's very simple, isn't it? At times, but we overthink it. Just tell them. Just tell them. And if you're uncomfortable about talking to a customer, then I think just getting back into that mindset of see them as a friend, co create a shared great experience for the customer and the dog. I mean this comes all the way back to, you know, a whole new topic around the imposter syndrome and stuff like that, which we, we've, we've dealt with ourselves.

And that was one of my, one of my issues, wasn't it? Talking on the phone and. Yeah. You know, disturbing people's day because they don't want to talk to me and stuff like that. So then you could have a. When would be a good time to call? Yeah, yeah. So you're inviting those, the answers to your questions that are going round and round in your head. Yeah, absolutely. And I just one thing to wrap up is, you know, another big issue that we find we struggle with is rebooking the people in for their next, their next appointment.

And some people will just say, will you drop me a message when you want to book in again? You know, they put it into their, in. Into the customer's sort of responsibility. But we know if we can rebook our customers more often, the dogs have a better experience because they don't come in matted. And actually our. We don't have to find so many new customers, so our revenue is higher as well. So it's a win win, isn't it? For everyone? How, how can we change that language?

Right. Yeah. So what I do with my coaching clients is at the end of the session, I will say when when, when should we book in? And I will actually do it there and then in the session because then it's done. I don't need to remember to do it. It's all organized and then we talk about the cadence that we need, you know, whether it's going to be two weeks or a month or six weeks or whatever. So I would encourage booking it there. And then I would also think about, again, from the customer's perspective.

That's another thing to think about. So, you know, my life is chaos. So I've got a crazy dog, two adopted children trying to run a business, and actually remembering that when I remember the dog needs his haircut is when he then starts looking a mess. But then you're ringing groomer, who's busy, so it's a bit further on. Whereas if it had just been done. Right, okay, so there we go, Pips all lovely. Let's come back in X. I'm free.

Let's look in your diary. It's booked in, it's done. I don't need to think about it. It's the customer and you've already got the client booked in. It's good customer service, isn't it? And I sometimes think about coming from a place of assumption and book them in the diary and say, I've made your appointment for X. Let me know if you can't make it. It was kind of like, turn it around. Well, yeah, and I guess it depends on the. The customer, doesn't it? Because for me, my diary is all over the place.

So if you were gonna book for me, the chances of that being a good time is probably zero.

Whereas actually, again, having a conversation with the customer to say, let's put you in, let's have a look. You know, Teddy comes in every seven weeks, so seven weeks time.

You prefer Tuesdays. You like mornings. Here's the next Tuesday morning. Let's get Teddy booked in. Just makes it super easy. And if the customer is like, you know, you can have that conversation about leaving it longer, wanting to do it sooner, where the holidays are.

It's all about communicating, isn't it? Absolutely. And it's communicating with the assumption. Yeah. That you are helping your friend organize their dog.

So why wouldn't they say yes? Whereas I think sometimes that reluctance to ask and to book is because you've got all this story going on inside your head. Your own judgment is stopping you from having that conversation. Whereas it should be really easy. And it's something you could do. As soon as you finish listening to this, you Know the next customer. Right. Once we book in the next session. Well, I mean, that's a whole new podcast, isn't it? It probably comes under your becoming unshakable talk that you do about how to stay calm, clear and consistent under pressure.

So, yeah, that's a whole. That's a whole new podcast episode, isn't it, really? I think the, the key learning from this really is obviously communication, talking and, and talking face to face, obviously. You can pick up so much more, can't you? And you can read a text message, an email in lots of different ways. Depending on how good your day's been or how rubbish your day's been, you can read that, that same message in different ways. But I suppose asking open questions, slowing things down, and having that emotional connection and intelligence with them to, to get what you want from that conversation as well, isn't it?

And then being honest, having clear boundaries, that's so important.

Yeah. And if. Yeah, and I think with that thing about boundaries, if people are doing what you don't want them to do and you're not having a kind conversation about that, you're actually saying what they're doing is okay.

And that's not them. That's a you thing. Yeah, I was going to say it's. I've often wanted to do a podcast called It's Not Them, It's Us. Yeah. You know, because quite often. And it's the same for employees as well, and I'm sure you help people around communication with employees. This. Quite often we get frustration around employees because they're not doing what we've been asked or they're not doing it as well as we want them to do. But the question I always ask is like, when did you last tell them?

When did you explain this? Where is it written down for them to research? You know, what was the onboarding like? What was their first week like with you? Did you just point them at the bath and say, there you go, pump the shampoo in there and get on with it? Or did you have like a whole training onboarding experience? You know, so. Yeah. What are you allowing? Because whatever you allow is what you get.

Yeah. So there's a lot of self reflection on there, isn't there? And. And critical thinking about what have we done and how can we improve what we've done to make. To have better results?

Awesome. Well, Amanda, it's been, it's been fantastic talking to you. It's a real eye opener and I'm sure people will have taken loads from this. How can People connect with you if they want to speak to you or if you've got any free resources that they can look at.

So I'm mostly on LinkedIn, which I don't think is a particularly relevant place. For people on LinkedIn. They do hang out there. Oh, excellent. Okay, so I'm, I'm on LinkedIn. Amanda Cookson and in terms of resources, some of the things that I've been talking about are summarized in some of the articles and things that I've written on our website, Northern Value Creators. So there's loads of stuff on there that I think are really useful for going to look at when you're thinking about improved communication. Excellent, thank you.

I'm sure we're gonna have part two as well. All around confidence and under pressure, then being becoming unshakable as the next one. Excellent. Oh good. Well, I'll look forward to that. And I'm always happy as well, you know, if people wanted a masterclass and something that then helps them take their conversations and change them. And so I often think about conversations that spark cortisol as being those red conversations and move them into green conversations and how to do that and look at particular scripts and phrases so that you fire drill those so you know exactly what you're going to say and how are you going to say it to make, you know, having those open discovery conversations easier.

Excellent. And remember everyone, you are all technical experts. You are absolutely. Excellent. Thanks for your time today and I'll see you soon. Pleasure. I hope you have enjoyed this podcast. Please make sure you give us a like or a review to help people find it. The podcast is sponsored by Low Pay. Head over to www.lopay.com to find out more about their payment solution.